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1995-17781-Minutes for Meeting November 14,1983 Recorded 11/21/1983tVOL .51 - - 011 DESCHUTES COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS A;0V 2. 1983 NOVEMBER 14, 1983 - SPECIAL MEETING Map, dcSC! dL't S �L PE'\ri"IOLL04% Chairman Young called the meeting to order at 10:15 A. M. Commissi6ifde;c Prante and Commissioner Tuttle were also present. Chairman Young explained that this meeting was originally advertised for an executive session. After consulting with Counsel and realizing that this meeting is under the open meeting law, Chairman Young explained that he cannot justify this meeting to be an executive session. Richard Isham, Legal Counsel, explained that there are two basis which would allow an execuitve session und__er these circumstances. One would be to consider the dismissal or discipline of or hear complaints or charges brought against a public officer, employee, staff member, individual agent, which is not the purpose of this meeting. The other is to consult with the legal counsel concerning litigation and the purpose of that is in discussing legal rights and duties of a public body there is a need to have the privacy of having that discussion, which also does not appear the nature of this, although there may be a reference to litigation. Mr. Isham explained that if there is no exception that applies the requirement is to have an open public meeting. Chairman Young opened the public meeting. Attached is a verbatim tratys- cript of that meeting. ;r� ....i �� I..% i 1995 VOL 51 FACE. FILE® BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS 011 2 X983 SPECIAL MEETING MARY SUE PENHOLLOU,/ VERBATIM TESTIMONY DESCHUTES COUNTY CLFi2 ( Commissioner Tuttle: "Could I interupt.for just a brief moment? I see Warren West here, is he representing someone?" Warren West: "I am just an interested party at this point." Commissioner Tuttle: "Do you have the potential of representing someone?" Warren West: "There is always that potential." Commissioner Tuttle: "If it appears that Mr. West will be representing someone who is here, I would have to seek independent counsel before I will be willing to continue this meeting." Judge Copenhaver: "So you are saying you will not listen to us, it that correct?" Commissioner Tuttle: Well I just have a particular difficulty that Mr. West is certainly aware of that creates some problems that I don't think we all want to..So maybe I can ask our own counsel how I should proceed on that basis." Rick Isham "Well certainly you don't have to participate in the Legal Counsel meeting. You don't have to be here. If more than one member of the Board were to vacate the room, the meeting would end for lack of a quorum. You certainly have the right to proceed with any personal interest any which way you want concerning having any private lawyer here representing you for some purpose if you deem it necessary. Also if during the meeting you feel that you want to no longer be present for some partic- ular reason you certainly have the right to leave during the meeting. Commissioner Tuttle: "Perhaps it is enough to have my concern on the record at this point and I can make that choice as I go along.' Richard Isham "Or you can state what you feel appropriate into the record at anytime." Judge Copenhaver: "His concern would be shared, I presume, by the other two commissioners because your situation is no differ- ent then theirs with the prospective litigation on the horizon, so they should as well be advised of same situation that your stirring over in your mind." Commissioner Tuttle: "I have a slightly different perspective in that as relates to Mr. West, a personal matter not related to the normal course of business.- Page 2 VOL 51 'h c 1 51 Judge Copenhaver: "I see. I'm just talking about the potential litigation, I thought you had reference to." Commissioner Tuttle: "No uh uh". Judge Copenhaver: "You stand no differently than the other two?" Commissioner Tuttle: "It is a different matter." Judge Copenhaver: "Do you want to proceed with the matter or not?" Commissioner Prante: "No." Judge Copenhaver: "I asked for or hoped we would have an executive session cause I thought perhaps the matter could be handled without a lot of public input and spot- light on the problem that didn't need to be. I foresee a potential of litigation. I've not frankly counseled Bill Jones and don't intend to. I've not told him that he should or should not file litigation, but unfortunately the action of reprimanding him as was done in the public exposure that that in fashion it was done through the media has I believe at least created the potential of a 42 USCA Section 1983 civil rights federal law suit. The danager of that law suit is this, its not Deschutes County, its the•three individual commissioners because the law applies to individuals. You cannot use public funds to defend yourselves you would have to secure you own private counsel. You also even if the ultimate recovery was a nominal amount like $100 assuming that Mr. Jones couldn't establish any actual compensatory damages, you would be stuck for a very sizable attorney fee, not from you private cousel but under the federal statute which would be trouble and thats and Im sure you are aware of the Columbia County mess where the attorney fee was many hundreds of thousands of dollars. Im not suggested that this would get into that serious a posture. The second law suit that may well apply is be a suit I presume by some tax payer in joining this commission on spending any public funds in the defense of themselves individually. The third lawsuit that may well be filed is the one that I'm going to file as a presiding cicuirt judge of this district and of this county and of the juvenile court. You had in my judgement exceeded and abused the juvenile law as it applies to the juvenile department. I think its rather clear that the authority that the commission has is to provide finances and the budgeting process for the Juvenile Department and it ends there. I realize theres some grey areas and theres some complexities which I hope seriously the legislature will address and change eventually, either state take over the Juvenile Department entirely or let the County run the Juvenile Department. But as of now the Juvenile Department is my responsibility. I'm not going to stand by and see this county commission Page 3 VOL 51 FA, !c 152 'Judge Copenhaver destroy the Juvenile Department. And I have reference Continued: to two things. I was not in attendance the other meeting so I don't know what Nancy Burket stated but she made some comment expressing opinion with regard to her views of detention. Even if they were erroneous they vary with apparently one of the commissioners philosphy's about detention. And that particular commissioner asked the Juvenile Director to discharge that person for expressing views in a public meeting. That I will not stand for. The second thing in which I have reference is the treatment of Bill Jones. Bill ,Tones is probably one of the highest regarded juvenile directors in the State of Oregon. He's been a juvenile director for I think 18 years here in Deschutes County he's had 15 years.of experience in the corrections division or corrections department in California before that. The department has never once to my knowledge in all this time until recently had any difficulty until this question of this therapy which some dumby entitled rage therapy but it is an attachment therapy. And I thought in fairness to the commission that they ought to hear from someone that is familiar with it instead of passing judgements on the liablity of such therapy. I take serious issue with the commission having any say what so ever with regard to what type treatments are initiated by the Juvenile Department and professionals. I don't recall reading in any of your campaign literature that you yourselves have the expertise of the people that are dealing with these troubled families have. The reason I'm concerned about the Juvenile Department and its destruction or potential destruction I see occuring is not to maintain some kind of an empire but the people in our community need help and these people are getting the calls in the middle of the night that you people aren't getting. You don't really understand I don't believe the extent of the problems we have in this community which are addressed in a number of ways. And I'm not here to say that I'm fully conversant with this therapy either but I'm studying it and I think it deserves study. And if you chose to, Dr. Dragovich is here and will explain it to you. And if you want to proceed and say no we don't want to hear it thats your choice. But I will not stand by and see this Juvenile Department's morale destroyed and the morales about the lowest I've ever seen it. Just primarily because of whats taken place within the last 30 days. And in that connection, at a meeting in my office and I don't recall the date of it now but it was within 30 days ago, Mr. Tuttle of your commission asked me specifi- cally what role does the County have to play in the Juvenile Department and I told him the same thing I'm telling you right now. You don't have any. And I'm politely and publically asking you to butt out of the Juvenile Department. Now if you want to hear about this new therapy, new, I guess it is relatively new, Susan's here to discuss it with you." Page 5 VOL Judge Copenhaver: "Not necessarily, you are mistaken, Mr. Young, I might in somewhat rebuttal of your remarks. I did not come here to threaten you at all." Chairman Young: "You did threaten me." Judge Copenhaver: "No I did not. Chairman Young: "Yes you did." Judge Copenhaver: "I gave you a promise not a threat. I have been an attorney and a judge for over 33 years and I have never yet seen the treatment given any public person that this commission did of Bill Jones. Never. Never have I ever seen a newspaper where a public employee's had a personal reprimand and particularly in this instance you had no authority to reprimand him. None whatsoever." Chairman Young: "We have given a number of personal reprimands since I have been here." Judge Copenhaver: "Not to Bill Jones." Chairman Young: "Your attorney I see, is that your attorney taking notes there?" Judge Copenhaver: "I don't have any attorney. I don't need one." Chairman Young: "I don't either. Thats all I got to say." Judge Copenhaver: "And again I say, in fairness to the Commission or those that are left, if you would like some input and some knowledge about this therapy program there is a mother here who has been through it with her child. I think you probably read the very critical letter that appeared in the Bulletin who I guess is the other second...." Chairman Young: "I sure did and it didn't help the situation." Judge Copenhaver: "I didn't even know who the identity to that person was til I read that article.'' Which did not help the situation." Chairman Young: (Unintelligible) Judge Copenhaver: "In any event, there is a person here who is familiar with the program who could enlighten you if you wish to be, if you don't want to thats fine." Page 4 VOL 51 PACE 154 Commissioner Tuttle: "Excuse me Mr. Chairman I'd like to direct a question to counsel. It appears to be that we are under at least a threat of litigation at this point, my instincts tell me that if I'm if someone is telling me that they are going to sue me or may sue me that I should at that point have some kind of an arms length involvement with that person rather than adding to the information it may have or has been discussed up to this point, and I'd like to have your opinion as to as to that fact." Richard Isham: "Mr. Chairman, it would be appropriate to adjourn this to executive session so I can answer Larry's question because it would be for the purpose of consulting with Counsel under the threat of litigation and then the public can come back in if you want to continue the meeting pr not after you come out of the executive session." Judge Copenhaver: "As a citizen I protest the County Counsel giving private advise to a commission member who will be sued if sued individually. I certainly don't protest his advising the commission as such but receiving independent private advise as a tax payer, I protest it." Richard Isham: "Well, I'll be advising the Board of County Commissioners and it will just take a minute I think so if the public could step out." Chairman Young: "Now, back in regular session, anybody have anything to say?" Commissioner Tuttle: "Mr. Chairman for myself I believe that it is in my best interest and the best interest of the County not to continue this public session and I'm going to excuse myself." At this time Commissioner Tuttle left the meeting. Chairman Young: "Lois, any comment?" Commissioner Prante: "No" Chairman Young: "I hope you all realize the unnecessary turmoil you are causing. You come in here, you threaten us with all kinds of disasterous results that might occur to us and I don't hesitate to say to.all of you involved that I don't appreciate it. In Eleven years I've been here I've never been treated this way. So I want you to know that, I'm very disgusted discouraged that you people would do this just because somebody got reprimanded you say that you want the County Commissioners to bug out. Why do you come to use and ask permission to use programs then? If one of these programs would backfire and somebody could be terribly hurt because we approved this, who would be sued. It would not be you judge. It would be me right?" Page 7 VOL 51 _.55 ,Dr.-Dragovich: "I would like to say something if I may before this ends." Chairman Young: "It's an open meeting." Dr. Dragovich: "Thank you. Just want to respond to what you had said, Mrs. Prante, the concern that I have is that if you speak to one therapist who says I do family therapy or you speak to another therapist who says I do family therapy or someone says they do marital work another person does marital work, you cannot be assured that its the same exact work. And I am aware that you have contacted some sources in California I would only submit to you that what three of us are offering in terms of a particular treatment approach in this town, that is here by the way, I am directly responsible for that program and that information being in this county and thats why I'm here, I'm also here because I am a member of the Juvenile Services Commission, have been since its inception and there have been some gross distortions misperceptions about what has happened in that commission in relation to this particular treatment. Unless your sources in California have specifically had the information, training, and exposure to the program as it currently operates in Evergreen, Colorado, we'd like to caution you that you may not be getting information thats equivalent to what exactly is taking place in this county." Commissioner Prante: "I would like to respond to that if I may. I am very aware that at no time does one source in a remote area have any direct knowledge here. I was meeting with, at the request of a therapist in the commun- ity who practices this, called me asked for a meeting I agreed totally, set up a meeting, that was subsequently cancelled. I have no intention of stopping any search for information with a few casual calls to another area. I called only first because these are highly respected people whom I knew that may be able to give me some sources of contacts. And not to be construed as the end of any attempt to gather information." Dr. Dragovich: "I think thats one of the major problems that people in this area are acting as if they do know exactly what is going on and thats not really true." Commissioner Prante: "I did not cancel the information." Dr. Dragovich: "I asked you to cancel the meeting. Thats my responsibility, also." Commissioner Prante: "Cancel the meeting, thank you, fine I'm very busy and I am not going to say you said you were going to have a meeting but I don't want the other mis- understood at any point. Page 6 VOL 51 156 Commissioner Prante: "May I comment, I am very interested in increasing my knowledge in all areas and have requested some written material on this particular approach, have contacted several people whom I know well in another state who work exclusively with children and youth to gain some inside information. I would not be interested in taking up a public meetings time to persue this search for more knowledge. But yes, I as an individual am interested and would be interested on my own to and had someone who had called me and said they wanted to talk to me about this and set up a meeting and it was cancelled by the other individual. So, whether or not this is even the issue with which we are dealing, that may be over here. As an individual I am interested in always finding out as much as I can find out about any kind therapy being used. And so at some point, when we get back from AOC conference I leave this afternoon, if anyone would like to initiate that contact I would be receptive." Judge Copenhaver: "I may just make a comment to that, Ms. Prante, that the letter which I didn't even get a courtesy copy of the letter of reprimand, by the way, which I thought was rather odd, but the letter takes a position that your gonna you the commission are going to audit the activities of the Juvenile Department and in this area. So I think it is of a direct County Commissions concern as to what this therapy means. And I think the County Commission, if they are going to do that, and I don't think you have any right to do that, but if you are going to proceed willy nilly continuing to meddle and interfer in the Juvenile Department affair, you should do so knowledgable. Thats my only point." It isn't a matter of personal, I appreciate your wanting to know more about it individually, but the position you took in that letter was that your gonna audit every couselor and, as I read it, in the Juvenile Department." Chairman Young: "I take exception to your word meddle." Judge Copenhaver: "Ok, exception noted." Commissioner Prante: "I have no more comments." Chairman Young: "I got no more comments." Page 8 VCL 51 PMO.15" .Dr.-Dragovich: "I guess I'm confused as to how this information and in what way or for what purpose it is to get to your folks because I have been contacted and was here at the judges request to provide information and now I'm finding that this is not the appropriate time place, one commissioner has excused himself so I don't understand the process." Commissioner Prante: "I speak for myself as an individual commissioner, I understood this morning when we came in yesterday that there would be an executive session. I am not legal counel, I proceeded. I was not aware there would be anyone else here, I was not aware that you would be here to give information. Came to the meeting and realized that the executive session component was not appropriated. We followed in with an open meeting, again was not aware, I know your name but we haven't met before so I was wondering which one is Susan. I expressed my personal interest in wishing more information. I also do not see, I am a one vote, whether that is appropriate for a public meeting, here I am, in no way putting a barrier between myself and the information. I did not request you to come here to present it, it is not (unintelli- gible).11 Dr. Dragovich: "Well it is terribly complex information and if at some point the Commissioners would decide they want that information from my personal standpoint, it would be more be easier to present that to everybody at the same time rather than having series of separate individual meetings." Commissioner Prante: "The three commissioner would have to decide, I can only speak for myself." Judge Copenhaver: "So theres no misunderstanding, the Commission does have a responsibility in one area, that may have caused some of the confusion in some of the Commissioners minds, and that is that under the state program where they are releasing state monies rather than funding Hillcreat and MacLaren and trying to get the money back in the communities we have this local as you know Juvenile Services Commission and you have a very direct role because you appointed the Juvenile Services Commission along with me. And they present, or various groups present, programs before the Juvenile Service Commission and it does require your adoption of those partiuclar programs. The reason being, I feel, is that the State does not want to send money back to the Counties directly to a Juvenile Department for example. It should be funneled through the budget process and through your offices. The other reason I think is that the State doesn't want you to start some program with state funds and all a sudden pull the rug out from under you and there your stuck with a program. So I think very wisely they have included the Counties Page 9 VOL 5 15R in this process. But thats not to suggest that you have the day to day right to control activites of .the Juvenile Department." Chairman Young: "Well then we do not have the day-to-day responsi- bilities then either, huh?" Judge Copenhaver: "Probably not." Chairman Young: "Probably not., I got to know. This is gonna cost me an awful lot of money, your telling me, if I'm wrong." Judge Copenhaver: "Probably not." Commissioner Prante: "I think those are things that need to be clarifed obviously, this is called on the job training in commission." Chairman Young: "The surprises never cease in this job. Anything further. Anybody else got a comment. Meeting is adjourned." BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS A. YOUNG, E A.-TUTTL COMMISSIONER LOIS BRISTOW PRANTE, COMMISSIONER BOCC:ap