1995-17781-Minutes for Meeting November 14,1983 Recorded 11/21/1983tVOL .51
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DESCHUTES COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS A;0V 2. 1983
NOVEMBER 14, 1983 - SPECIAL MEETING Map,
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Chairman Young called the meeting to order at 10:15 A. M. Commissi6ifde;c
Prante and Commissioner Tuttle were also present. Chairman Young explained
that this meeting was originally advertised for an executive session.
After consulting with Counsel and realizing that this meeting is under the
open meeting law, Chairman Young explained that he cannot justify this
meeting to be an executive session. Richard Isham, Legal Counsel, explained
that there are two basis which would allow an execuitve session und__er these
circumstances. One would be to consider the dismissal or discipline of or
hear complaints or charges brought against a public officer, employee,
staff member, individual agent, which is not the purpose of this meeting.
The other is to consult with the legal counsel concerning litigation and
the purpose of that is in discussing legal rights and duties of a public
body there is a need to have the privacy of having that discussion, which
also does not appear the nature of this, although there may be a reference
to litigation. Mr. Isham explained that if there is no exception that
applies the requirement is to have an open public meeting.
Chairman Young opened the public meeting. Attached is a verbatim tratys-
cript of that meeting.
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i
1995
VOL 51 FACE.
FILE®
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS 011 2 X983
SPECIAL MEETING
MARY SUE PENHOLLOU,/
VERBATIM TESTIMONY DESCHUTES COUNTY CLFi2 (
Commissioner Tuttle: "Could I interupt.for just a brief moment? I see
Warren West here, is he representing someone?"
Warren West: "I am just an interested party at this point."
Commissioner Tuttle: "Do you have the potential of representing someone?"
Warren West: "There is always that potential."
Commissioner Tuttle: "If it appears that Mr. West will be representing
someone who is here, I would have to seek independent
counsel before I will be willing to continue this
meeting."
Judge Copenhaver: "So you are saying you will not listen to us, it that
correct?"
Commissioner Tuttle:
Well I just have a particular difficulty that Mr. West
is certainly aware of that creates some problems that
I don't think we all want to..So maybe I can ask our
own counsel how I should proceed on that basis."
Rick Isham
"Well certainly you don't have to participate in the
Legal Counsel
meeting. You don't have to be here. If more than one
member of the Board were to vacate the room, the
meeting would end for lack of a quorum. You certainly
have the right to proceed with any personal interest
any which way you want concerning having any private
lawyer here representing you for some purpose if you
deem it necessary. Also if during the meeting you feel
that you want to no longer be present for some partic-
ular reason you certainly have the right to leave
during the meeting.
Commissioner Tuttle:
"Perhaps it is enough to have my concern on the record
at this point and I can make that choice as I go along.'
Richard Isham
"Or you can state what you feel appropriate into the
record at anytime."
Judge Copenhaver:
"His concern would be shared, I presume, by the other
two commissioners because your situation is no differ-
ent then theirs with the prospective litigation on
the horizon, so they should as well be advised of
same situation that your stirring over in your mind."
Commissioner Tuttle:
"I have a slightly different perspective in that as
relates to Mr. West, a personal matter not related
to the normal course of business.-
Page 2 VOL 51 'h c 1 51
Judge Copenhaver: "I see. I'm just talking about the potential
litigation, I thought you had reference to."
Commissioner Tuttle: "No uh uh".
Judge Copenhaver: "You stand no differently than the other two?"
Commissioner Tuttle: "It is a different matter."
Judge Copenhaver: "Do you want to proceed with the matter or not?"
Commissioner Prante: "No."
Judge Copenhaver: "I asked for or hoped we would have an executive
session cause I thought perhaps the matter could
be handled without a lot of public input and spot-
light on the problem that didn't need to be. I foresee
a potential of litigation. I've not frankly counseled
Bill Jones and don't intend to. I've not told him
that he should or should not file litigation, but
unfortunately the action of reprimanding him as was
done in the public exposure that that in fashion it
was done through the media has I believe at least
created the potential of a 42 USCA Section 1983 civil
rights federal law suit. The danager of that law
suit is this, its not Deschutes County, its the•three
individual commissioners because the law applies to
individuals. You cannot use public funds to defend
yourselves you would have to secure you own private
counsel. You also even if the ultimate recovery
was a nominal amount like $100 assuming that Mr. Jones
couldn't establish any actual compensatory damages,
you would be stuck for a very sizable attorney fee,
not from you private cousel but under the federal
statute which would be trouble and thats and Im sure
you are aware of the Columbia County mess where the
attorney fee was many hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Im not suggested that this would get into that serious
a posture. The second law suit that may well apply
is be a suit I presume by some tax payer in joining
this commission on spending any public funds in the
defense of themselves individually. The third lawsuit
that may well be filed is the one that I'm going to
file as a presiding cicuirt judge of this district and
of this county and of the juvenile court. You had in
my judgement exceeded and abused the juvenile law as
it applies to the juvenile department. I think its
rather clear that the authority that the commission
has is to provide finances and the budgeting process
for the Juvenile Department and it ends there. I
realize theres some grey areas and theres some
complexities which I hope seriously the legislature
will address and change eventually, either state take
over the Juvenile Department entirely or let the County
run the Juvenile Department. But as of now the
Juvenile Department is my responsibility. I'm not
going to stand by and see this county commission
Page 3
VOL 51 FA, !c 152
'Judge Copenhaver destroy the Juvenile Department. And I have reference
Continued: to two things. I was not in attendance the other
meeting so I don't know what Nancy Burket stated but
she made some comment expressing opinion with regard
to her views of detention. Even if they were erroneous
they vary with apparently one of the commissioners
philosphy's about detention. And that particular
commissioner asked the Juvenile Director to discharge
that person for expressing views in a public meeting.
That I will not stand for. The second thing in which
I have reference is the treatment of Bill Jones. Bill
,Tones is probably one of the highest regarded juvenile
directors in the State of Oregon. He's been a juvenile
director for I think 18 years here in Deschutes County
he's had 15 years.of experience in the corrections
division or corrections department in California
before that. The department has never once to my
knowledge in all this time until recently had any
difficulty until this question of this therapy which
some dumby entitled rage therapy but it is an
attachment therapy. And I thought in fairness to
the commission that they ought to hear from someone
that is familiar with it instead of passing judgements
on the liablity of such therapy. I take serious issue
with the commission having any say what so ever with
regard to what type treatments are initiated by the
Juvenile Department and professionals. I don't recall
reading in any of your campaign literature that you
yourselves have the expertise of the people that are
dealing with these troubled families have. The reason
I'm concerned about the Juvenile Department and its
destruction or potential destruction I see occuring
is not to maintain some kind of an empire but the
people in our community need help and these people
are getting the calls in the middle of the night
that you people aren't getting. You don't really
understand I don't believe the extent of the problems
we have in this community which are addressed in a
number of ways. And I'm not here to say that I'm
fully conversant with this therapy either but I'm
studying it and I think it deserves study. And if
you chose to, Dr. Dragovich is here and will explain
it to you. And if you want to proceed and say no
we don't want to hear it thats your choice. But I
will not stand by and see this Juvenile Department's
morale destroyed and the morales about the lowest
I've ever seen it. Just primarily because of whats
taken place within the last 30 days. And in that
connection, at a meeting in my office and I don't
recall the date of it now but it was within 30 days
ago, Mr. Tuttle of your commission asked me specifi-
cally what role does the County have to play in the
Juvenile Department and I told him the same thing
I'm telling you right now. You don't have any. And
I'm politely and publically asking you to butt out
of the Juvenile Department. Now if you want to hear
about this new therapy, new, I guess it is relatively
new, Susan's here to discuss it with you."
Page 5
VOL
Judge Copenhaver:
"Not necessarily, you are
mistaken, Mr. Young, I
might in somewhat rebuttal
of your remarks. I did
not come here to threaten
you at all."
Chairman Young:
"You did threaten me."
Judge Copenhaver:
"No I did not.
Chairman Young:
"Yes you did."
Judge Copenhaver:
"I gave you a promise not
a threat. I have been an
attorney and a judge for
over 33 years and I have
never yet seen the treatment
given any public person
that this commission did
of Bill Jones. Never.
Never have I ever seen a
newspaper where a public
employee's had a personal
reprimand and particularly
in this instance you had
no authority to reprimand
him. None whatsoever."
Chairman Young: "We have given a number of personal reprimands since
I have been here."
Judge Copenhaver: "Not to Bill Jones."
Chairman Young: "Your attorney I see, is that your attorney taking
notes there?"
Judge Copenhaver: "I don't have any attorney. I don't need one."
Chairman Young: "I don't either. Thats all I got to say."
Judge Copenhaver: "And again I say, in fairness to the Commission or
those that are left, if you would like some input
and some knowledge about this therapy program there
is a mother here who has been through it with her
child. I think you probably read the very critical
letter that appeared in the Bulletin who I guess is
the other second...."
Chairman Young: "I sure did and it didn't help the situation."
Judge Copenhaver: "I didn't even know who the identity to that person
was til I read that article.'' Which did not help the
situation."
Chairman Young: (Unintelligible)
Judge Copenhaver: "In any event, there is a person here who is familiar
with the program who could enlighten you if you wish
to be, if you don't want to thats fine."
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VOL 51 PACE 154
Commissioner Tuttle: "Excuse me Mr. Chairman I'd like to direct a question
to counsel. It appears to be that we are under at
least a threat of litigation at this point, my
instincts tell me that if I'm if someone is telling
me that they are going to sue me or may sue me that
I should at that point have some kind of an arms length
involvement with that person rather than adding to
the information it may have or has been discussed up
to this point, and I'd like to have your opinion as to
as to that fact."
Richard Isham: "Mr. Chairman, it would be appropriate to adjourn this
to executive session so I can answer Larry's question
because it would be for the purpose of consulting with
Counsel under the threat of litigation and then the
public can come back in if you want to continue the
meeting pr not after you come out of the executive
session."
Judge Copenhaver: "As a citizen I protest the County Counsel giving
private advise to a commission member who will be
sued if sued individually. I certainly don't protest
his advising the commission as such but receiving
independent private advise as a tax payer, I protest
it."
Richard Isham: "Well, I'll be advising the Board of County
Commissioners and it will just take a minute I think
so if the public could step out."
Chairman Young: "Now, back in regular session, anybody have anything
to say?"
Commissioner Tuttle: "Mr. Chairman for myself I believe that it is in my
best interest and the best interest of the County not
to continue this public session and I'm going to excuse
myself." At this time Commissioner Tuttle left the meeting.
Chairman Young: "Lois, any comment?"
Commissioner Prante: "No"
Chairman Young: "I hope you all realize the unnecessary turmoil you
are causing. You come in here, you threaten us with
all kinds of disasterous results that might occur to
us and I don't hesitate to say to.all of you
involved that I don't appreciate it. In Eleven years
I've been here I've never been treated this way. So
I want you to know that, I'm very disgusted discouraged
that you people would do this just because somebody
got reprimanded you say that you want the County
Commissioners to bug out. Why do you come to use and
ask permission to use programs then? If one of these
programs would backfire and somebody could be terribly
hurt because we approved this, who would be sued. It
would not be you judge. It would be me right?"
Page 7 VOL 51 _.55
,Dr.-Dragovich: "I would like to say something if I may before this
ends."
Chairman Young: "It's an open meeting."
Dr. Dragovich: "Thank you. Just want to respond to what you had
said, Mrs. Prante, the concern that I have is that
if you speak to one therapist who says I do family
therapy or you speak to another therapist who says
I do family therapy or someone says they do marital
work another person does marital work, you cannot
be assured that its the same exact work. And I am
aware that you have contacted some sources in
California I would only submit to you that what three
of us are offering in terms of a particular treatment
approach in this town, that is here by the way, I am
directly responsible for that program and that
information being in this county and thats why I'm
here, I'm also here because I am a member of the
Juvenile Services Commission, have been since its
inception and there have been some gross distortions
misperceptions about what has happened in that
commission in relation to this particular treatment.
Unless your sources in California have specifically
had the information, training, and exposure to the
program as it currently operates in Evergreen,
Colorado, we'd like to caution you that you may not
be getting information thats equivalent to what
exactly is taking place in this county."
Commissioner Prante: "I would like to respond to that if I may. I am very
aware that at no time does one source in a remote
area have any direct knowledge here. I was meeting
with, at the request of a therapist in the commun-
ity who practices this, called me asked for a meeting
I agreed totally, set up a meeting, that was
subsequently cancelled. I have no intention of
stopping any search for information with a few casual
calls to another area. I called only first because
these are highly respected people whom I knew that
may be able to give me some sources of contacts. And
not to be construed as the end of any attempt to
gather information."
Dr. Dragovich: "I think thats one of the major problems that people
in this area are acting as if they do know exactly
what is going on and thats not really true."
Commissioner Prante: "I did not cancel the information."
Dr. Dragovich: "I asked you to cancel the meeting. Thats my
responsibility, also."
Commissioner Prante: "Cancel the meeting, thank you, fine I'm very busy
and I am not going to say you said you were going
to have a meeting but I don't want the other mis-
understood at any point.
Page 6
VOL 51 156
Commissioner Prante: "May I comment, I am very interested in increasing
my knowledge in all areas and have requested some
written material on this particular approach, have
contacted several people whom I know well in another
state who work exclusively with children and youth
to gain some inside information. I would not be
interested in taking up a public meetings time to
persue this search for more knowledge. But yes,
I as an individual am interested and would be
interested on my own to and had someone who had
called me and said they wanted to talk to me about
this and set up a meeting and it was cancelled by
the other individual. So, whether or not this is even
the issue with which we are dealing, that may be over
here. As an individual I am interested in always
finding out as much as I can find out about any kind
therapy being used. And so at some point, when we
get back from AOC conference I leave this afternoon,
if anyone would like to initiate that contact I would
be receptive."
Judge Copenhaver:
"I may just make a comment to that, Ms. Prante, that
the letter which I didn't even get a courtesy copy of
the letter of reprimand, by the way, which I thought
was rather odd, but the letter takes a position that
your gonna you the commission are going to audit the
activities of the Juvenile Department and in this area.
So I think it is of a direct County Commissions
concern as to what this therapy means. And I think
the County Commission, if they are going to do that,
and I don't think you have any right to do that, but
if you are going to proceed willy nilly continuing to
meddle and interfer in the Juvenile Department affair,
you should do so knowledgable. Thats my only point."
It isn't a matter of personal, I appreciate your
wanting to know more about it individually, but the
position you took in that letter was that your gonna
audit every couselor and, as I read it, in the
Juvenile Department."
Chairman Young:
"I take exception to your word meddle."
Judge Copenhaver:
"Ok, exception noted."
Commissioner Prante:
"I have no more comments."
Chairman Young:
"I got no more comments."
Page 8
VCL 51 PMO.15"
.Dr.-Dragovich: "I guess I'm confused as to how this information
and in what way or for what purpose it is to get
to your folks because I have been contacted and was
here at the judges request to provide information and
now I'm finding that this is not the appropriate time
place, one commissioner has excused himself so I
don't understand the process."
Commissioner Prante: "I speak for myself as an individual commissioner, I
understood this morning when we came in yesterday that
there would be an executive session. I am not legal
counel, I proceeded. I was not aware there would be
anyone else here, I was not aware that you would be
here to give information. Came to the meeting and
realized that the executive session component was
not appropriated. We followed in with an open
meeting, again was not aware, I know your name but
we haven't met before so I was wondering which one
is Susan. I expressed my personal interest in
wishing more information. I also do not see, I am
a one vote, whether that is appropriate for a public
meeting, here I am, in no way putting a barrier
between myself and the information. I did not request
you to come here to present it, it is not (unintelli-
gible).11
Dr. Dragovich: "Well it is terribly complex information and if at some
point the Commissioners would decide they want that
information from my personal standpoint, it would be
more be easier to present that to everybody at the
same time rather than having series of separate
individual meetings."
Commissioner Prante: "The three commissioner would have to decide, I can
only speak for myself."
Judge Copenhaver: "So theres no misunderstanding, the Commission does
have a responsibility in one area, that may have
caused some of the confusion in some of the
Commissioners minds, and that is that under the
state program where they are releasing state monies
rather than funding Hillcreat and MacLaren and
trying to get the money back in the communities
we have this local as you know Juvenile Services
Commission and you have a very direct role because
you appointed the Juvenile Services Commission along
with me. And they present, or various groups present,
programs before the Juvenile Service Commission and
it does require your adoption of those partiuclar
programs. The reason being, I feel, is that the
State does not want to send money back to the Counties
directly to a Juvenile Department for example. It
should be funneled through the budget process and
through your offices. The other reason I think is
that the State doesn't want you to start some program
with state funds and all a sudden pull the rug out
from under you and there your stuck with a program.
So I think very wisely they have included the Counties
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VOL 5 15R
in this process. But thats not to suggest that you
have the day to day right to control activites of
.the Juvenile Department."
Chairman Young: "Well then we do not have the day-to-day responsi-
bilities then either, huh?"
Judge Copenhaver: "Probably not."
Chairman Young: "Probably not., I got to know. This is gonna cost
me an awful lot of money, your telling me, if I'm
wrong."
Judge Copenhaver: "Probably not."
Commissioner Prante: "I think those are things that need to be clarifed
obviously, this is called on the job training in
commission."
Chairman Young: "The surprises never cease in this job. Anything
further. Anybody else got a comment. Meeting
is adjourned."
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
A. YOUNG,
E A.-TUTTL COMMISSIONER
LOIS BRISTOW PRANTE, COMMISSIONER
BOCC:ap
